The other day, the German Defense Minister, a woman, met in Saudi Arabia with their leaders, refusing to "cover herself" as insisted per Islamic law. Outrage and insult was broadcast throughout the Muslim world; what are your thoughts on this?

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8 Answers

Ray  Dart Profile
Ray Dart answered

When in Rome......

I worked extensively in Saudi Arabia in the '90s. I only ever saw women at the ends of the trips, that is to say getting on and off aircraft, and they were mainly Western Women and they were well-covered up.

The lot of women in Saudi Arabia is a disgrace, they cannot drive, cannot vote, are unable to form their own friendships and whilst they have rights and protection (in theory) under Muslim law, their lifestyle is such that they often cannot avail themselves of the help and support that law provides.

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Walt O'Reagun
Walt O'Reagun commented
I thought I heard last year, that the Saudi's were giving the women the privilege of driving. Due to the need for them to do shopping without waiting for man-of-the-house to be home. (So it was "sold" as easing the burden of men, having to drive their women. LOL)
Ray  Dart
Ray Dart commented
There are repeated reports that the Saudis will allow women to drive. Trust me, it ain't ever REALLY going to happen. Just imagine the problem if a woman caused a motoring accident. What a profound disadvantage she would be at, in every way. These people play by different rules.....
Call me Z Profile
Call me Z answered

I've given this situation great thought, but I continue to arrive at the same point:

There is no place in civilized society for the institutionalized subjugation of women. Period. Muslims insist foreigners adhere to their dress codes but refuse to acculturate to the standards of other nations when they are the foreigners themselves. This is hypocrisy.

Maybe the Saudis figure even meeting with a woman in an official capacity is concession enough, but yet the West's concession to the deplorable Saudi (or more to the point, Islamic doctrine of) misogyny goes on, virtually uncontested. I assert that if the oil that Saudis were conveniently blessed with under their desert (which westerners actually found for them) was non-existent, so would be any need for Western interest in any and all things Saudi Arabia.

What we see in this is the cohabitation of two toxic bedfellows: wealth and religion; which in no historical context has resulted in the betterment of human culture nor, particularly, the interests of women... Or, as Mr Hitchens so poignantly observed, religion "poisons everything". 

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Ray  Dart
Ray Dart commented
I agree 100% with the sentiment, and your analysis of the deeply corrupt Saudis.(You should observe their activities in London to see the misuse of wealth at its most spectacular. They are also very good at applying very different "lifestyle" and religious rules when here.)

As a pragmatist, however, I'm not sure what the civilised world can, or should do about them.

They are VERY good at ignoring criticism (whilst feigning being deeply hurt by it), and the world does need (right now) their energy, otherwise much of Western Europe will be beholden to the equally unpleasant Putin regime.

We have to deal with the world as it is, and not how we would wish it to be.

Perhaps my children will have better choices to make.
Jann Nikka
Jann Nikka commented
As I have stated "OIL" talks.
:) Good points.
Call me Z
Call me Z commented
Lets hope so, Ray.

As you describe in London, wealthy Saudis also have a footprint here in S Florida. They like flash; drive Lamborghini's and overpay for real estate. There is a reputation for being haughty, ill-mannered, as they also tend to attract police attention. Coming to the states is like the Amish "Rumspringa" for them.
Tom  Jackson Profile
Tom Jackson answered

As you said yourself The Z, and I agree 100% 

There is no place in civilized society for the institutionalized subjugation of women. Period. Muslims insist foreigners adhere to their dress codes but refuse to acculturate to the standards of other nations when they are the foreigners themselves. This is hypocrisy.

I have found that I am getting more impatient and less tolerant  with what I consider to be "crap" as I get older.

Perhaps any Saudi who is somehow offended by the site of an "uncovered woman" should simply wear blinders to avoid being incensed thereby.

At any rate, as an official of a foreign state, I think the square yard that she occupies while in Saudi Arabia should be designated as German territory and she should have diplomatic immunity from Sharia law.

(And yes, I am aware of cultural anthropology.)

Fortis Paradise Profile
Fortis Paradise answered

I don't like to Identify myself with anything other than my character but with this question I just can't ! So as a Muslim, I find Saudi Arabia an extremist country because of their religious practices, and I feel sorry for Saudi's women and anyone who dares to think differently there.

but what's really interesting is that they get away with everything they do! And this isn't even close to the most shocking or ridiculous thing I've heard about them. They're just sitting there ready to be insulted and outraged over every right humans possess.

P.S:On a second thought and forgetting about that country's treatment of women, maybe it would have been wiser if she had covered her hair, because if this is an objection to their ways, why have relations with them or visit their country when you know what's going on and what their laws are?

Walt O'Reagun Profile
Walt O'Reagun answered

There is the saying the others have mentioned:  "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

However ... There is the higher standard of ensuring human decency and respect.  >  In other words, just because the "Romans" treat their women as property doesn't mean their guests should change their views of "women are human with the same rights as men".

Levi F. Profile
Levi F. answered

Well it is interesting, considering how some Western nations want to ban women from wearing a hijab or niqab, and yet here we have the opposite situation in Saudi Arabia. It would be hypocritical to require women to remove their veil upon entering Europe but then refuse to don one when visiting Saudi Arabia. It's a fine line to tread between respecting another country's culture and selling out your own.

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Call me Z
Call me Z commented
So in your view, a dogma of misogyny is OK, as long as it permitted by laws? How about slavery?

It is hypocritical to insist on the following following of local customs at home and then ignoring (or defying) host customs when abroad. A step beyond that, it is arrogance personified to ennoble the concept of personal faith over common harmony.
Pepper pot Profile
Pepper pot answered

Well, many British people would like to air their concern about the way some Muslim women dress and are treated in Britain, but of course they'd be called racist if they did.

You'd think when in Rome would be a fair enough statement, but only if that also applied to Britain...but oh no apparently it does not. How on earth did we get here? How can it be ok for us to allow our British culture and identity to disappear, while allowing hate speech against British citizens and their freedoms by Islamic Extremists who want to install Sharia Law?

Muslims have already set up Sharia Law councils here in Britain, it is the only place some Muslim women can get a divorce because their marriage is not recognised by British law, yet few manage this and so end up staying in abusive marriages.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhbkyCjIvuw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN3eKN-ybG8

Browarch Spa Profile
Browarch Spa , I've given this circumstance incredible thought, yet I keep on arriving at a similar point, answered

I don't prefer to identify myself with something besides my character
yet with this question I just can’t! So as a Muslim, I discover Saudi Arabia a
fanatic nation in light of their religious practices, and I feel frustrated
about Saudi's ladies and any individual who sets out to think distinctively
there. In’s, truly intriguing that they escape with all that they do! Also,
this isn't close by anyone's Brazilian wax for women in memphis  standards to the most stunning or crazy thing I've
caught wind of them. They're recently staying there prepared to be offended and
insulted over each correct people have.

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